Conversations on Healing

Welcome to the Conversations on Healing podcast, where host Shay Beider speaks with renowned healthcare leaders, practitioners, and thought leaders to explore the world of wellness, the incredible powers of self-care, and what it truly means to heal today. Join us on this journey to become more whole, healed, and connected.

Shay Beider Hello and welcome to the Conversations on Healing podcast. I’m your host, Shay Beider. Joining me today is Christian van Nieuwerburgh, a professor of coaching and positive psychology at RCSI, University of Medicine and Health Sciences in Ireland. Christian is an executive coach, consultant, educator, and internationally recognized speaker who has trained and presented in countries all over the world. He’s authored and edited numerous influential books on coaching, wellbeing and positive psychology, making him a leading voice in the field. Through his work in both academia and practice, Christian is passionate about helping people live better lives, connect more deeply, and bring the principles of coaching and positive psychology into education, leadership, and everyday life. In our conversation today, we explore the incredible art of radical listening and what it means to be more fully present and attentive to others. Christian shares insights from his newest book, written with his co-author called “Radical Listening: The Art of True Connection.”

He explains how setting a positive intention before we listen can shape our energy, deepen connection, and bring much more care into our interactions. Christian offers very practical tools for quieting distractions, accepting differing viewpoints with respect and creating space for others to feel seen, valued, and heard. We talk about some of the barriers to communication that often get in the way of truly connecting. Learning to listen beyond words can transform relationships, leadership, and even has a place in healthcare where sometimes listening itself is the intervention for healing. Christian and I touch on the cultural differences in listening, exploring how traditions and communication styles can vary and shape the way that we connect across different backgrounds and experiences. We can all use the radical listening framework to connect both with ourselves and attune more deeply with one another. So I’m excited to share this episode. It is packed full of specific skills that you can use to become a better listener. I truly hope you enjoy the conversation. Well, Christian, I am excited to have our conversation today because we’re going to be focusing on listening, which is such an important skill, and at the same time, it is very much also an art. It is, I think both a skill and an art. You’ve recently released a book called “Radical Listening, The Art of True Connection,” and this is based on years of work in both the fields of positive psychology and coaching. So can you share a little bit more with our listeners about what motivated you to write “Radical Listening?”

Christian van Nieuwerburgh Thank you so much, Shay, firstly, for that wonderful question and secondly, for creating this beautiful space for us to share our thinking. I really appreciate that you are right. A lot of this comes from the fact that I am an executive coach. I’ve been coaching for about 15 years, and that’s the same from my co-author, Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener. And one of the things that’s central to coaching is listening. A typical coach would spend 80%, maybe 90% of the time listening. And I’ve written books about how to become a coach. In those books, of course, there’s probably one chapter allocated to listening, one chapter allocated to asking questions, etc. But the more I’ve been coaching, the more I’ve realized how sophisticated listening is. And it’s exactly what you said, Shay. It’s both a skill, but there’s an art part of it, which is really about how we can use listening to really inform our way of being with other people.

Shay And one of the things that you talk about in the book is as a first step, identifying your intention for listening- in other words, really clarifying your primary motivation before the start of a conversation, which can then increase the chances that it’ll be beneficial for both you and the person that you’re listening to. I was curious if you could talk about how you put this into practice? How do you set your intention before a conversation?

Christian Well, Shay, thank you for that. In our model of radical listening, really this idea of positive intention is right at the center. It’s really thinking about, “What is our motivation for listening?” And therefore, setting a positive intention, which is thinking about, “What do I hope to add to the conversation through the way that I’m listening?” Setting that intention before a conversation leads to what we’ve started to call this idea of “intention leads to attention.” So let’s say that my intention when I’m listening to a colleague is to appreciate them. So my purpose of having this conversation is to show that I appreciate them. If I set that intention before the conversation, then my attention is drawn to what I value about them- their strengths. I’m more likely to be compassionate. So that’s what we really mean by starting with a positive intention.

It’s very important for me that we take these ideas and make them implementable and practical. That was very important for us as we wrote this book. That’s why we’ve broken it down into almost micro skills because we think each of those skills can be developed independently of the other. And because all of us listen already- most of us are already able to listen. In many cases, it’s simply a case of honing these skills. So even for our conversation today, Shay, you have such a lovely way about doing this. You and I have met before, I think it was maybe weeks ago, we had a check-in again before this session started. You even invited me to spend a minute just to ground ourselves. So that’s really an example of practical ways of taking time to set an intention. And for me, what that involves is thinking about the other person or persons I’m going to be interacting with.

So I’ll be thinking about them, I’ll be trying to understand a little bit more about them. I’ve listened to a few of the podcasts that you’ve done in order to get a sense of that. The other thing is thinking, “What’s the right kind of energy going to be for me as I enter into this conversation with that assumption?” So again, to put it into another real context, imagine you’re going to pick up your child from school or a nephew or somebody like that. That’s going to happen. That interaction is going to happen. And so setting an intention might be as you’re walking to school or as you’re driving there, you take a moment, think about the person. “How are they likely to be at the end of a school day?” “What is my intention?” “Am I trying to get information from them?” “Am I trying to show them that I understand them?” “Am I trying to build a connection?” And then once I’ve thought of that, the next thing is to say, well, “If that’s my intention, what’s the kind of energy I want to bring to that?” And if I might give a third example, Shay, is that okay?

Shay Yes, absolutely.

Christian It’s just so central, this idea of starting with intention. I mentioned that I’m an executive coach, so I do take some time understanding my client’s organization, knowing a little bit about them through a phone call or an email interaction before I even meet them. And then, depending on the time of day- if I’m going to meet them at 9:00 AM or 5:00 PM- I do a little bit of assuming: “What’s their energy going to be like and therefore what should my energy be?” So part of the preparation is managing my own energy. So in executive coaching, often my clients are executives working in very busy environments. So I’m assuming that they’ll want a calming reflective energy from me. And so I take some time, I might sit in the lobby or in a shared area. One of my favorite drinks is an espresso, so I might just have an espresso there and I am just thinking about the client.

Then when I’m ready, I would go up to meet with them. And I’m very intentional Shay, if I’m trying to bring that calm energy, which is usually what’s needed, I would even start by speaking slowly. I would slow things down. I would take some time before we get into the real subject to say, “Hey, what’s been going on? What’s something you’re looking forward to? What’s coming up?” And all of this is my intention to bring kind of a calm, reflective space. And then, the slightly more complicated bit is I might’ve gotten that assumption wrong. So in radical listening, we’re always calibrating. So I might’ve assumed that- let’s say I go in and my client is very low energy, very chilled, very relaxed. I might do the opposite. I might start speaking more quickly, I might use more hand gestures as I’m talking. I might lean forward. So it’s really thinking about, my intention is to think what’s going to be the best kind of energy that I can bring and what is it I’m hoping? What value am I hoping to add through my listening?

Shay And I love how simple this practice of setting intention is and how you can use it in so many different cases. You gave some good examples. You can also do it for meetings- I do that for pretty much every meeting I have beforehand. And it’s quick; It can take 10 to 15 seconds. It’s not like you need hours to prepare, necessarily. If it’s a big, important meeting, you might want to spend more time, but it’s fun how you can weave this into all sorts of different places in your life. So it’s a great skill.

Christian Shay, you obviously have this skill because I just love your energy for these meetings. And so there’s another reason that this is important from a radical listening point of view- and that is because the listener, actually, we want to be grounded. Because one of the things that radical listening is all about is paying full attention to our clients. So part of this is about matching and making sure we’re bringing what’s necessary. The other part of it- and this applies to big meetings, even very crucial meetings- if we want to be at our best and be able to pay full attention to what’s happening. I imagine that many of us have gone to interview, haven’t we? And this is a similar example of if I can be grounded and I can have a positive intention, I think that’ll allow me to be more attentive to what’s going on and therefore more responsive. So I think there’s many reasons why that really first step of setting an intention is important. The other thing I want to add, Shay- we did think a lot about the terminology because “intention” is a very frequently used word, and I’m very happy about that. But we actually specify, set a positive intention. And I think that’s notable because if I find myself saying “My intention is to manipulate someone.”

Honestly, I might, as I think about it, say I’m actually trying to get this person to agree to something that maybe they don’t want to do- that’s a little reminder for me: well, that’s not a great starting point. Let me reframe that. Let me rethink. “What is a positive intention?” So that’s something that your listeners could just practice with. This could be for any interaction as you say, Shay, because I don’t want people thinking, well, this is a 30- minute practice. It could be going up to the barista. If you’re in a coffee shop and it’s really quiet, there’s going to be an interaction, and you can even have a positive intention for that interaction as well.

Shay That’s so funny. In all my years of doing this, I’ve never once set an intention of “I want to manipulate someone.” But I love that, and I think your point is well taken- to make sure that it is a positive intention and that you’re really clear in that beforehand is primary. So that’s great. I want to talk a little bit about some of the skills. So in “Radical Listening,” you talk about the framework that includes these six fundamental skills that you describe. These include noticing, quieting and accepting- which are the internal skills- and then also acknowledging, questioning, and interjecting- which are the external listening skills. Can you talk about these internal and external listening skills and then how they can be applied?

Christian Yeah, thank you, Shay. So I’m very grateful I had this opportunity to work on this book with somebody I really admire, Robert Biswas-Dienner. We knew that we wanted to write a book about listening. And the more we read about it and the more we researched it, it did become clear to us that there are certain micro- skills which can be developed. As we looked at those and developed our framework, it also became apparent that there’s some so-called internal skills and some external skills. Now, what that means in practice is that the internal skills are usually not visible to our conversational partners- they might not see that these things are going on, whereas the external skills, they will experience, because it’s things like asking questions or interjecting. So the internal skills- I’m going to just touch on a few of them- and I might start with the most challenging perhaps, which is accepting.

And, Shay, for me, particularly today in the world we live in, I think that skill is one that we should all work on in the context of radical listening, accepting is about accepting the right of whoever we’re talking to, to hold the opinion that they hold. And it’s kind of the idea of treating people with dignity and respect. Everybody should be entitled to have an opinion and hold that opinion, just like we do. I do, you do, and our listeners do. Each one of us has come to a particular view or opinion and we might hold that very strongly or we might hold it lightly, but we’ve come to opinions. So in radical listening, it’s to accept the right of people to hold opinions that may be even opposite to our own. I want to clarify that acceptance is necessary for a conversation to take place because remember our subtitle is “The Art of True Connection.”

We’re saying that you can listen to people in a way that allows connections to form. And so if I don’t respect the right of somebody to hold a different opinion to mine, there’s no connection. But we’re not saying you should agree- we’re not talking about agreeing with somebody else’s opinion, that’s a different matter. So, I could respectfully listen to someone and accept they have a right to have that opinion and then say, “Well, I have a different opinion,” and maybe go on to share mine. So that’s accepting the right of people to have an opinion and those perspectives that they have. So that would be one of the internal skills. The other one is quieting, and this is similar Shay, and this links back to our setting and intention. And if I may, I just do want to share my intention with the listeners in this conversation.

My intention is genuinely to be as helpful as I can be to you, the listener. I’m hoping that some of these ideas might resonate with you and lead to better connections and, therefore relationships in your lives. So that’s my intention for this conversation and I did set that before I came along. So I’m hoping to share things that you can take and apply. So, quieting- there are two aspects to quieting. The internal quieting is managing our own self-talk. Now this is a huge topic, isn’t it, Shay? I mean, this could include things like “imposter phenomenon.” While I’m talking to somebody, I’m thinking, “Oh, they’re going to find me out,” or “Maybe I’m doing this all wrong.” Any self-talk that might be undermining your ability to listen.

And I think if you’re talking to somebody maybe of high status- you perceive them to be of high status, you might get distracted by thinking, “Am I saying the right thing?” or “Are my facial expressions right?” Because what’s happening with this inner dialogue is that it’s going on at a time when we should be giving our full attention to the person that we’re talking to. So it’s kind of interfering with giving full attention- that’s why it’s unhelpful. So, what can we do with things like that? Well, one is to find ways- like we said- to be in a more settled state.

We’re not in a fight-or-flight mode because we’ve taken some time to be grounded. The other practical strategy I’ve developed- because as I learned about these things, I did find that there were lots of things that I was saying to myself that were unhelpful. So what happens now when I think of something unhelpful is I think “I’ll think about this later” and I return my attention to the person that I’m talking to.

So, it does require one of the other skills of radical listening, which is noticing. First, I have to notice I’m getting a little bit distracted with some inner dialogue that’s going on for me. And then I say to myself, “Okay, I’ll think about this later,” and then I come back to the person I’m talking to. So, that’s about inner quiet- making sure there’s nothing going on internally that’s getting in the way. This might require a lot of additional work outside coaching or outside these kinds of radical listening conversations. Then the external quieting is making sure that the place you’re in is conducive to listening. So, let’s say you’re in a coffee shop, it would be simple things like, “Hey, let’s sit in that quiet corner over there,” maybe being explicit. “I really want to hear what you have to say. So should we sit over there? It looks a little bit quieter.” “Should we sit outside?”

But then of course it’s quieting all of our devices as well. These are external distractions. So, imagine you’re just going to sit with someone- let’s say it’s a good friend- and you say to them, “I really want to hear what you have to say. Let’s sit in that quiet corner there.” And imagine, I say, “And I’m going to turn off my phone,” or “I’m going to silence my phone,” or “Let me put my watch away,” because it’s such a powerful and explicit message to say, “I don’t want to be distracted, because what you have to say is so important.”

And I’ll give you a personal example because I am very easily distracted, Shay, that’s one of my things. I’m always curious. My mind’s usually racing, so I’m so easily distracted that I know that when it’s an important conversation, I should be looking towards the wall. So if I’m going to sit with somebody and there’s one view, which is out onto some beautiful view where there’s birds flying, whatever, I intentionally sit with my back to that so that there’s fewer distractions. So the quiet thing is there’s an internal bit and there’s also trying to create a quiet environment so that I can actually hear what the other person is saying. So those are a couple of the internal skills.

Shay It’s interesting- I had a meeting with someone recently. We happen to be in Santa Monica, California by the beach, and it’s so beautiful there. We were seated in a restaurant that actually overlooked the ocean, which is so incredible, it doesn’t get much better than that. And the woman I was with, I could feel that there was a bit of distress in her system. We were meeting for the first time, and I could just feel intuitively that it was a little bit hard for her. So, I made the choice to ensure that she had the view of the ocean. It was so beautiful outside. And she actually said at one point during the conversation how much she loved the ocean and how wonderful it was for her to just be able to see that as we were sitting and talking. And so it’s incredible how there’s such a healing power to nature. And then our capacity to sort of utilize that natural beauty in our environment because talking about that idea of the environment and then how that can contribute to a kind of relaxation that can enable a more fulfilling conversation.

Christian That’s beautiful, Shay. Thank you for sharing that. And I do love the ocean as well. I’m at risk of getting distracted about Santa Monica, but I won’t.
Shay, there are two big things that have come up. Then I want to share an example as well so that it’s real for our listeners. One is it really is about intention. So in that example there just being that intentional- that you’re thinking about who should get the view of the ocean. That’s really what radical listening is about. It’s being very aware and alert to what’s going to be best for the person that I’m talking to. And the other one I think is care showing that we care about the person and there’s so many ways to do that, but being alert to where they might sit, what’s going to be best for them. And Shay, you’re already talking about that other skill of noticing and noticing this person. You are picking something up, and that is valuable information for us when we’re trying to calibrate so that we’re bringing the right energy to it.

So in a similar kind of vein- this was when I was in my role of executive coach. This client, as I met them, they were kind of pretty wound up and they seemed like really restless- they felt restless. And so, we were going into this confidential space. It was a beautiful room, but it’s still a smallish room. And I just thought, “This isn’t the right environment.” This person was feeling a bit trapped, and now we’re in a small room for 90 minutes and I said, “Would you like us to be here? Or should we go for a walk?” There was actually a beautiful park just opposite. And I said, “Would you prefer we went there?” and the person just eyes lit up? “Yeah, let’s go for a walk.” And exactly what you said, Shay- it was actually a beautiful park and there were little animals and there was plants.

And it was such a beautiful conversation. It took a bit of the pressure off, because as we were walking, my client was pointing things out to me. It was close to where they worked and they were saying, “Oh, this is this kind of plant.” or, “That’s what happens there.” And it was just so much more conducive for the kind of conversation that we wanted to have. So, I love the idea of, part of the radical part of listening is that we demonstrate care for the person we’re talking to and we’re hyper-intentional. We’re not doing things by accident and we’re not just saying, “Oh, let’s just go for a chat.” It’s really planned so that the person we’re listening to- the little phrase we use often, Shay- is that radical listening should lead to people feeling seen, valued, and heard.

Shay One of the things I really enjoyed reading in your book is when you looked at what great communicators do- how they listen- and one of the things that you found that was a common response is that it was what they were listening for. So you gave some examples around this. Some people talked about listening for emotions; others talked about listening for what was not being said- what was omitted. Some looked for strengths- they were kind of spotting strengths that were occurring that emerged during the conversation. So I was interested in how you understand this idea of “what you’re listening for.”

Christian Yeah. And in “Radical Listening,” there are these two aspects: there’s a “listening for” and then there’s a “listening in order to.” The “listening in order to” is the bit we were talking about with intentions. What is the intention? So, I might be listening in order to help the person to feel valued, but the “listening for” is us paying attention to what’s going to be most helpful for our interaction. So, if somebody’s doubting themselves and this kind of doubt in the conversation, we might be listening for resources. That’s what we mean.

It’s listening out for what’s going to be helpful for the person that I’m talking to. So if there’s doubt, a question might be, “When have you overcome something like this before” or “What strengths do you naturally call on when you’re in similar situations?” Or if I’m listening for hope, I might say, “If you could imagine a future where this problem no longer existed, what sort of things would you be imagining?”
So, it’s actually listening out for things that might be helpful for the person we’re listening to. So that’s the distinction we have between listening in order to something and listening for something. Sometimes we listen in order to understand- and just to give our listeners some examples of the different motivations. One of the motivations is listening to understand, and we all do that. And I’m hoping that, for listeners to this, that’s one of their motivations.

And to link back to this idea of “intention leads to attention.” If I’m listening to understand, I’m trying to make connections in my head, I’m trying to think “What do I already know about this?” I’m looking for those little nuggets that I can take away. And that’s why having an intention before you start listening can be so powerful. There are these self-focused motivations like listening to understand. And then there’s these pro-social motivations, which is the purpose of the interaction is actually about strengthening relationships or valuing people or appreciating people.

And Shay, at the moment, I work at a university of medicine and health sciences- it’s called RCSI University of Medicine and Health Sciences. It’s based in Dublin, Ireland. Some of my work involves working with health professionals and health professionals. Many health professionals of course, spend a lot of time dealing with patients or clients. And there is already a lot of talk about the bedside manner- how do we communicate, what’s a good way of communicating? But one of the things that I think comes from radical listening is the idea of thinking that sometimes listening is the intervention. It’s not a kind of way of conveying something or a way of explaining something. But sometimes the most powerful intervention is that the person feels seen, valued, and heard. So those are the pro-social intentions is when I’m thinking “I want to listen to a person in a way that they feel better about themselves or maybe our relationship too.”

Shay Yeah, that’s so fascinating to me, because in the work that we do through Integrative Touch and the healing therapy that we do- particularly for people who’ve experienced significant trauma, illness, or big challenges- the core element of that therapeutic approach is deep listening. It’s listening to the inner intelligence of the person that you’re working with. And it’s that ability to tune in as deeply as you possibly can to what their system already knows in terms of what is needed in order for it to heal. That then enables you, as a practitioner, to support them on a healing journey and in whatever form and shape that needs to take based on their life experience and sometimes their trauma history. And it can also be informed by culture and race and religion and all the other parts of our lives.

So, this ability to listen below the surface, into the heart of what really matters, it takes such refined attention. So I really relate to that idea of intention and attention- and how it is so vital to really understanding on a very deep level how you can in the work that we do, help someone to heal. There’s a lot of important capacity built into deep listening that is also very related to healing work.

Christian Yeah. Well, Shay, I’m very grateful to you for the work that you do- very genuinely. It’s such valuable work. And at the same time, I’m thinking collectively as people on this planet right now, healing is so important. I think we’ve collectively, as human beings, we’ve been through some very traumatic things. And I really do think- and this comes back to that question you asked me- “Why did you write this book?” To be honest with you, one was the very pragmatic- it would be helpful for many professionals who listen for a living to be able to listen just that little bit better so they can be of better service to others. There was that very pragmatic view. We were thinking of coaches, counselors, health professionals, and educators. But I think personally, Shay, I grew up in a war zone in Beirut in the 1970s, and I’ve seen civil war and I’ve seen invasions and all of this, and I moved away from that to come to live in England where I am now.

But I think recent events- the things that have been happening that we’re seeing on our TV screens all the time- I was just thinking, it seems to me we’re getting more divided and we’re listening less to one another. So, I’m not making any huge claims for “Radical Listening.” It’s not going to solve big things, but I thought, “We’re disconnected. We’re not listening to one another.” So, this idea of radical listening is really just that first step. I think that without a connection, we can’t do the valuable work, the kind of work that you do. Also- without connection we can’t build relationships, and we’re going to become more and more polarized. I think secretly, my personal thing is- I’d love to see more people talking to one another, more dialogue, more respectful interactions, even if we have different views, I want to respect that.

And my hope is, that we can find ways that- despite our differences- we know how to have dialogue. I think that part of my passion for this work and why I’m so grateful for these opportunities, Shay- like right now to be sharing some of these ideas and a few of your listeners are more hopeful as a result of it. I think my message is- we can all play a part in this and we all want to be listened to. We all want to be respected. But, I would say step one is let’s afford that to others. Let’s take the first step and let’s reach out, and let’s show compassion to others. Let’s be interested in them. Let’s care truly, deeply about other people. And I know it’s a naive thought, Shay- but very naively. I think if we extend that to others, they might be more likely to share that with us as well.

Shay If it is naive, it’s a beautiful naivete because, I mean, if we really actualize that world- where we are caring deeply, we are deeply compassionate, we are listening deeply and using a lot of the skills that you’ve defined in “Radical Listening,” that would be a good world.

Christian That’s right. And again, to be practical- because my intention is to be as helpful as possible- I’d invite your listeners to experiment with some of these skills. And I’ll talk about the other three skills in a moment. But the ones we’ve talked about accepting the right of people to have a different opinion just for fun. Maybe you do that with people who support a different sports team or something, or you do it within your family about maybe I’m a Star Wars person, and so-and-so is a Star Trek person. But practicing saying, “Well, even though the person has a different opinion, I’m curious, what is it about Star Trek?” This is a real example, by the way, Shay, I’m a big Star Wars person.

It’s that curiosity- to accept their right to have a different opinion. This quieting is maybe even in our family context, or whatever, protecting time for those meaningful conversations. Now that could be in the car with your child on the way back from school- that could be sacred time. And I mention this, Shay, because I missed out on that- because I wasn’t a coach then and it was about 20 years ago. And the thing with Miche was I told you my mind’s kind of racing all the time; I’m thinking pretty fast. So my preference was always to think about the future. I found it very difficult to be in the moment. So real example: I’d be dropping my son off to the bus stop- I’d have to take him there, and then from there he would go to school and I’d go to work.

But because it was kind of hectic, I’d be shouting at him to get ready and get in the car because we’re going to be late. And then, between getting in the car to getting to the bus stop, my mind was already at work. I was thinking, “Well, I need to get there at 8:30, then this is going to be happening. So, now when I look back, I’m disappointed because that could have been very special time, but instead I kind of wasted that because I was always thinking about the future. So, finding those moments of creating opportunities to really listen. And then the noticing, the third internal skill is the ability to notice what’s happening. And there’s so many things to notice. Notice what’s happening for the person I’m listening to, but notice what’s going on in me and also notice what’s happening between us. So those three internal skills, I would say, we can all do that and we can all start practicing those things.

Some of us are going to be better at some of those skills than others. And then the three external skills- and again, these are things, Shay, that I think we can each dial up, and some of us are going to be better than others. One of them- a really important one for me, Shay, is acknowledging, I think part of the radical listening because this idea of “I see you.” So acknowledging a person’s strengths, acknowledging how they must be feeling, acknowledging the challenges they face, those are the kinds of things we mean. And in our book, we’ve got a whole chapter on acknowledging, and there’s even different levels of acknowledging. And there might be times in a coaching conversation where we in a listening conversation where we intentionally don’t acknowledge something, right? So acknowledging- I would say for now, the way to practice these things in our everyday life is just to dial it up a little bit.

Anytime you hear somebody talk about a strength, jump in there and say, “Oh, wow, that is something I really admire about you,” or “This is what I really appreciate about you, you’re so thoughtful.” That’s the kind of acknowledging- I see you. Then there’s questioning. And part of Radical Listening for us is asking the right questions at the right time. And this is a way of demonstrating that I’m right there with you. And that should be happening throughout a radical listening conversation- the person should think, “You know what? Christian’s right here with me and asking the right question at the right time.” There are no killer questions out there. There are no amazing questions to ask. The most amazing questions emerge from what the person has just been saying Now that needs us to be comfortable with the use of silences. And in one of the skills, this quieting, is the use of silences.

So that’s another thing for listeners to experiment with- using pauses. If you’re comfortable with a two-second silence, maybe try and extend it to three-seconds because the use of silence in listening allows the other person more time to think. It slows the pace of the conversation down. So a lot of advantages to that. So with questioning, one thing we need to make sure of is we’re not formulating the next question as the person is talking. And that’s just so common nowadays, isn’t it, Shay? In everyday conversations, it tends to be- it’s almost like we’re waiting for our turn to speak, but in radical listening, it should really feel spacious to the person listening to They should feel “Christian isn’t going to jump in the moment I take a breath.” So that ability to pause and use silences is powerful. And the final external skill is interjecting.

And this is the one that- it’s really my co-author, Robert Biswas-Diener, who convinced me of this because, Shay, the person who brought me up- my mother- was Japanese. She made it very clear- I mean, she was always teaching me about respect, respectful interactions- and one of the golden rules was, you never interrupt anyone.

So I’m find this one very difficult, but I’m sold on it. I’m convinced after having written this book, because what we mean by interjecting is jumping in and jumping out. And the reason for that- that I just mentioned- is conveying to the other person: I’m right there with you in the moment that you say something. So an example of that would be, “Oh, wow, really?” Just kind of immediately as they say something. Whereas previously, Shay, I would’ve waited. Somebody would’ve said something like, yeah, and “I won Employee of the year.”

And then rather than me saying, “Oh, wow, that’s great!” I would’ve waited till the end of whatever they had to say at that point, I would say something like, “Oh, it’s great that you mentioned you became employee of the year.” But the problem with that is, I think there could be some doubt in the person I’m listening to that I’ve been attentive, like, “How come Christian didn’t say anything?” So another one of the big ideas- and I’ll pause for a minute after I say this- but another one of the big ideas of “Radical Listening” is that we should be listening in a way that the listener beyond reasonable doubt believes that we’re right there with them.

Shay I’m glad you brought up, just from your own family story, the cultural differences- and it’s something that you address, I think, beautifully in the book, and you share some research as well that’s looked at in different communities. For example, they did a study where there were people in New York and they would have much shorter pauses before somebody would hop in and say the next thing. Then in other communities, I think there were some folks from California, and I’d heard another study presented on this too, where it was expected that there was a much longer pause before you would take your turn, so to speak. There was this idea of how you take your turn, and it is very different. And one of the other things you addressed in the book is that skill of adaption- being adaptable. Being able to say, “Oh, okay, I’m in a different culture with a person who’s from a different culture.I’m in a moment where I need to adapt the way that I’m going to communicate and respond.”

So, normally because of where I grew up, my default might be “X,” but now I’m going to change it to “Y,” because I recognize that will actually be more beneficial or conducive to a good conversation. And so that sensitivity and kind of heightened awareness around not everyone communicates in exactly the same way- and we have different understandings of should you interject? That idea.
And I do totally agree that there is such a nice reinforcement that can come from interjecting where you feel validated or that what you’ve said, they really heard it and they’re saying, “Oh yeah!” or “How wonderful!” or “How great!” And that can be lovely. But I also do recognize in some cultures that might feel a little odd or strange if you’re not used to that style of communication.

Christian Yeah, thank you, Shay. And that was one of my favorite parts of the book- to look at the context that we’re in, and culture, and all of the other things that you’d mentioned earlier, play a part in that. So another big idea of Radical Listening is this idea of optimal matching. And there was actually some research around this concept- around optimal matching of support- so that if somebody needed support, the right support was offered to them. And I thought a lot about this because initially I was thinking this is through the skill of noting that I mentioned. I would notice what seems to engage this person, how do they respond in a certain way? And I’m trying to pick up all of the signals of what do they really want out of this conversation? Because optimal matching is- a person wants something and I’m offering exactly what’s wanted.

So I spent a lot of time thinking about we really have to hone our abilities- we have to be super sensitive. And then it kind of hit me that another option is asking a person, “How would you like to be listened to?” And I do think that when there’s a bigger chance of miscommunication, or I’m not really sure in this place that I’m in, how I think that’s actually, first a respectful question. And secondly- again, remember this idea of beyond reasonable doubt- if I ask that question, I’m conveying my care. I care about getting this right, and I want to make sure I’m matching. So I live in England where there’s a particular form of typical communication, and I also live in Spain. And in Spain, the typical form of communication is different, and they have much more openness to what we call overlapping dialogue.

So there could be four people chatting and some people are seemingly talking over one another- but that’s a way of being connected. If I’m sitting there quietly and the three other people are all talking, I’m not actually connected. So, the fun example that I think many of your listeners could relate to is imagine your home and a family member or a partner or a friend comes back after a hard day at work and comes along and says, “Oh my gosh, it’s been such a tough day.” And you want to listen to them. You want to be supportive. Imagine they say, “I’m just having this problem at work. I don’t really get on with my manager,” and this is the kind of problem they’re telling you about. So it’s logical that you think, “Oh, what they really need is for me to help them solve the problem.”

And you might go and jump in and say, “Oh, that happened to me as well. This is what I would do if I were you.” or “Why don’t you just do this?” or “I’m telling you this is what you need to do.” That could be matched if the person actually wants that. But imagine what they want instead is just to be acknowledged. They’ve had a tough day- they just want somebody to say, “Oh my gosh, that is sounding tough. How did you cope with that?” And I hope immediately listeners are thinking- seeing what happens with a mismatch there. So either we need to really develop that skill to pick up what this person wants right now, might be just a listening ear, and that’s what I’m going to provide.

But I am starting to think more and more, Shay that it’s safer to say, “I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such a tough day. What would be the most helpful thing I could do right now?” Because that allows the other person to say, “If you can just let me vent for 10 minutes.” or they might say, “I just need you to help me out. Can you give me ideas?” And that then turns into collaboration. We’re working together in order to get the kind of outcome we want. So this idea of being aware of the context and then trying to provide the best support possible that we can, that’s really at the heart of Radical Listening. And I think one of the reasons it’s radical is it’s almost like the primary purpose of this kind of listening is connection rather than communication.

Shay Yeah, that’s deep- the primary purpose is connection rather than communication. Because you think about the verbal and nonverbal aspects of connecting and communicating with someone. And yeah, that’s interesting when you really frame it around connection. And I very much appreciate the point that you made of just outright asking that question, “How would you like to be listened to?” You can just be explicit and ask someone, “How would you like to be listened to?” And you gave some really good examples- just to follow up on one of them that you mentioned just moments ago- of what some of the barriers to communication are in the book. And so, you talked about one of them that you just said of things like, “Oh, that’s happened to me,” kind of comparing or competing. Or saying something like, “Oh, I’ve had it way harder than that.” Or there’s comments like that, or making assumptions like, “Oh, I already know what you’re going to say.”

Maybe because it’s somebody you’ve known for a long time, but that actually could be a total misinterpretation of what they’re about to say. Or other examples you give in the book are saying things like, “Oh, I know what’s best.” I take a positionality that I know what’s best. There’s another one you give that’s a time obstacle where you share, “Oh, I don’t have time for this.” So there’s a hurriedness in your assumption. So I’m curious about what you learned about the barriers to good communication- and then what we can do. Like you said, you gave a great example already of asking “How would you like to be listened to?” so that hopefully you don’t hop into those patterns. But I’m curious what else you’ve learned in relationship to those barriers.

Christian Yeah, Shay, I’ve learned a lot through writing this book- and it’s because I’ve made a lot of these mistakes that we highlight as common barriers. But one of the other big ideas behind Radical Listening is compassion. Compassion for the person you’re talking to and self-compassion. So if as a listener you’re thinking, “Oh my goodness, I do some of those things,” let’s be compassionate to ourselves because often we have a good intention, and I’ll give you an example of that, but we just don’t realize that it’s a barrier. So, the competing one, which is, “I’ve had it much worse than you”, or “I did that, and it was much better.” If I say, “I went to Boston and I had this lobster roll”- by the way, one of my favorite things (you can see I’m getting distracted even with my own example!)- but it’s actually not helpful if somebody says, “Well, I went to the place that they invented lobster rolls, and I had a…” Sometimes we do that because we’re trying to connect with people, and the comparing is the same, but the competing…

So it magically happened just like a month ago, Shay, that I had said to a colleague at work- I had said, “I’ve just come back from something and I’ve got these a hundred unread emails in my inbox and just struggling to catch up. I’m feeling a little bit overwhelmed. Every time I go in, I come back, there’s a hundred emails,” and my colleague said to me, “You’ve got a hundred, I’ve got 250 unread emails.” And because of this work that I’m doing, I immediately got curious and I said, look, I have a good relationship with this person. So I was able to say, “Let’s pause there.” I said, “I’m curious, how come you just told me that 250?” And the person said, “Oh, I wanted you to think, oh, it’s not that bad. Other people have 250.” So you can see the intention is a good one, but I was able to say, “When you said that I felt I wasn’t seen.”

I thought you were saying, “Yeah, you don’t have a problem at all. I’ve got the real problems here.” So, I was able to articulate that. And so, with all of these barriers- time poverty is a huge one. This thing of “I haven’t got time.” But I think you and I have already said this, Shay, in this conversation, radical listening doesn’t take a huge amount of time. You can do radical listening in a two-minute block. All it means is you’re making it clear to the other person, “You’ve got my full attention, and I’m going to make sure I’m focused on exactly what you’re saying and I’m going to be with you.” So step one of any barriers is noticing what they are. So the “mind reading” one we call it is, and again, I’m going to challenge your listeners a little bit here, Shay, just to honestly think, have there been any conversations they’ve had in the last six months where they’ve gone into the conversation saying, “I know exactly what the other person’s going to say.”

Now you might have a good idea of what they’re going to say- but I’m just highlighting that that is a barrier, because to be logical, if I genuinely think I know what they’re going to say, it means I don’t need to listen to what they have to say. I know what they’re going to say, so I don’t listen. And unfortunately, it’s one of those self-fulfilling prophecies. I go in thinking I know exactly what they’re going to say. So, I’m a bit defensive. I’m not really listening that much. And so they’re more likely to say something that I perceive to be unhelpful, and it can turn into a cycle. So a lot of “Radical Listening: is about breaking these cycles- noticing. And so, I’d invite your listeners to notice with whom are the people they can find themselves facing these barriers? And what situations also, is it when we’re under pressure, we’re more likely to experience these barriers?
Is it in certain social settings, certain work settings? And then I’m going to say something else naive. Now, Shay, I am naive. I can’t help it. The other naive thing I want to say is that I think we can press the reset button, Shay, with people. Let’s think of somebody at work, because I don’t want to go to the more challenging area of our personal relationships. Let’s stay out of that area. But that I do think applies as well.
But let’s think of a work context where I have a colleague, maybe I’m taking them a bit for granted, they might be the colleague that I’m always hanging out with, and maybe I’m not listening to them in this fully attentive way because we’ve had a hundred conversations. And I like the idea of sometimes saying, “Maybe over the last couple of months I haven’t been fully attentive. Sometimes maybe I’ve been a little bit distracted.” Imagine I can press the reset button and say, “Look, I want to assure you that from now on, I’m going to give you my full attention. I’m sorry, I was a bit distracted before.”

So I think we don’t talk about the barriers to kind of highlight them or to say that they’re insurmountable obstacles- but on the basis that if we’re not aware of that, these are barriers that they can be getting in our way. So another practical example, let’s say a friend of yours comes along and says, “Well, you know what? I went to Phoenix.” A friend of yours says, “I went to Phoenix and I took a short drive up to Route 66. I’ve always wanted to see that.”
Radical Listening is keeping them as the center of attention and saying, “Oh, wow, what did you enjoy about it?” “What was it like?” “What did you think of Sedona?” “Where were you on Route 66?” Rather than the comparing to say, “Oh, I’ve been to Route 66”. Because remember, the intention is to see, hear, and value them. It’s not to share your own story.

And it’s a trap, because we often think that, “Oh, this would be a great way to connect.” “Oh, I was there too.” But Radical Listening is about maintaining the focus on the person we’re listening to. So you might quickly say, “Oh, I’ve been to Sedona as well. What did you like about it?” So one of the things about Radical Listening is the center of attention is always on the person you’re listening to. And if you notice it slipping to you, you have to find a way to put it back. It’s all about them. And that’s what helps to make them feel seen, valued, and heard.

Shay I had a friend who was really good at this- but he did it in an interesting way where he almost split the difference of what you’re describing, which I think was kind of intriguing. Let’s say you were saying as an example, “Oh, I went to Sedona and oh my gosh, the Red Rocks. It was so gorgeous.” And he would listen to you as you were sharing the different things. And then at some point, let’s say he had been there before, instead of saying like, “Oh, I’ve been there.” It’s so great the way he did it, which I just thought was really curious- It did actually feel more like connection- at least in my experience. The way he did it- he would at some point when there was kind of a pause, he would say something like, “It is so beautiful there, isn’t it?”

Christian Yes.

Shay And it was a way of acknowledging that he knew what you were talking about. He’d experienced, he’d felt it, but he wasn’t making it about him. He wasn’t turning it to, so it didn’t have a strong egoic element. It had more of a joining element. And I thought that was a very cool approach to that connection without taking over.

Christian It’s the perfect example, Shay, and we would consider that an interjection. “It’s so beautiful, isn’t it?” And our definition of interjection is actually to “jump in and jump out” of a conversation- which is exactly what he was doing. It doesn’t take the focus away from you. It gives this additional thing of, “Yeah, I kind of get what’s going on here, but this conversation’s about you.” So you can jump in to say something like that and then jump back out again. And so that’s a way of actually Radical Listening as a way of connecting with the other person. And I want to share another, a few really practical things listeners can take away, because I want to remind us that the purpose is the person feels seen, valued, and heard. So even if you play back the same words that your conversational partner is using, that’s a way of doing it.

Picking up meaningful phrases, raises, noticing when their eyes light up- so if they talk about Sedona and you think, “Okay, well that’s something there,” you might spend some more time talking about the things that gives them life. So the noticing is- noticing what are the things that motivate this person? Noting the emotions, noting what they are talking about and what they’re not talking about. So it really highlights that the skill of noting is picking up all of the things that could allow greater connection to take place. And I think the skill we’re missing now that I’m talking to you, Shay, is humility. It’s humility. That’s definitely a skill.

It’s exactly what you said when you were talking about this friend of yours. It’s not trying to overtake the conversation or to dominate it. It’s to be humble and say, “Well, yeah, I’ve been there, but I’m more interested in how did you experience that?” So imagine you’re a manager of somebody and they come along and say, “I’m really struggling with this, giving this presentation to this many people.” And they might even ask their manager, “How did you do these presentations?” And for a radical listener, the radical listener would say something like, “Oh yeah, those presentations were hard. How are you thinking of doing it?” or “What ideas have you had?” So this idea of always putting the focus back on the person we’re listening to- I do think that requires humility.

Shay Yeah. Yeah, it does. And obviously we’ve talked about how this can work personally, how it can work professionally, and there’s also that partnership model and the work that you highlight in the book from the Gottman Institute.

And I’ve followed them for years- I think their work with couples is incredible, right? So powerful. So I thought it might be valuable for people that aren’t familiar with that body of work, just to hear. It’s a tiny little sliver of a huge body of work. But one of the ideas that you bring up in your book, which is “bids.” And so this idea of bids- bids are attempts to build connection or gain interest or attract the attention of the other person. And I heard, I think years ago, maybe Dr. John Gottman gave an example of this, where he’d be with his wife- and she also works with him- and they’d be at home and maybe he was reading a book, and she would say something like, “Oh, I’m so frustrated by friend so-and-so,” and a big part of him wanted to just stay and keep reading his book because he was interested in what he was doing.

But he recognized that, for the benefit of the relationship that was actually a bid. It was her reaching out towards him to share something that was important to her, and she wanted the bid to be returned. It’s like volleying in a tennis match. And so he would, even when he didn’t on one level, when he was like, “Ah, I want to read my book.” He kind of trained himself in a way, the way he described it, because he saw it so concretely in his research with couples that if you just pause in that moment and you respond and you say, “Oh, really tell me about the frustration,” then boom, you’ve now created this connection. Rather than that being a point of separation and that he’d seen over and over again with couples that they had studied in the lab and the pretty cool studies that they designed, that this was a way to foster and build a positive relationship with your partner at home. So I also think that’s such a cool concept, and since you mentioned it and Radical Listening, I thought it would be fun to bring it up.

Christian Yeah. Oh, definitely fun to bring it up is we spent a lot of time on this. Unlike you, I highly admire Dr. John Gottman’s work, and he was able to predict with quite a good accuracy which couples would stay together or not just by observing them for a short period of time. And you are right, this is kind of a tiny sliver of my understanding of that work, but what I’ve taken away from it is the idea of bids- so that when people say something, they’re trying to connect with you and you’ve got two responses: either to turn towards or turn away. So somebody says, “Oh, hey, there’s this Netflix documentary I was just watching,” and you’re like, “I’m in the middle of something else.” If I say, “Oh, I’m actually cooking something, I need to focus on this.” I’ve turned away from the bid. There’s a bid to say, let’s have a little connection, and I’ve turned away from it.

The turn from would be like, “Oh, what is it about?” You can still keep the conversation short. I do think it’s interesting- I think there’s personality factors that might apply because I guess somebody who’s more, tends more towards introversion is at greater risk of turning away from bits. I could really relate to that. I love reading and I might be really immersed in a book, and my initial thought might be, “Can’t you see? I’m reading.” Right? But that would definitely be a turn away kind of moment. And so we really connect very much with that work to the extent that I believe that every interaction is an opportunity to build or damage connection. So every interaction- something we say towards the end- but how does this apply for us? I just want to give again some practical examples for our listeners. We talk about this most in the acknowledging.

So the acknowledging is an opportunity to turn towards, and we talk about four levels that are helpful for “Radical Listening.” There’s a level of which is not really acknowledging at all. So if somebody comes back, comes home and says, “I had a terrible day at work today I think I’m working with narcissists and I really just want to find a way to just chill and relax.” The bit that I would focus on is, “Okay, so how are we going to chill? What can I do to help us chill?” And that’s a kind of flatlining on the bit about, “I’m working with narcissists” or whatever. I intentionally don’t engage with that because I want to turn towards the person who’s just come in by saying, “Okay, you want to do this thing?” Then we have three levels of positive acknowledging in our book. The first is called upplaying.

So these are all things we can start practicing with. So upplaying is if somebody says something in a conversation, you kind of boost that a little bit to see, “Oh, I’ve seen that.” So if somebody says, it took me three times, but I finally managed to do it, “Wow, that’s persistent- three times. You had to do it three times?” That’s up playing something so they feel acknowledged- that they’re seen. Then there’s, we talk about affirming, that’s a pretty common one. All of these are ways of turning towards. So somebody affirming, being affirming is to be very explicit to say, “I really appreciate how thoughtful you’ve been about this.” Let’s say they’re telling me about, “I’m not really sure, I tried this, and I’ve tried that.” “Wow, you’re so thoughtful.” Really being explicit to affirm somebody- that’s turning towards. And then- this has to be treated with caution- the joining, because this one is not always appropriate.
That’s getting as excited or more excited than the other person. So let’s say they come back and they’re like, “I passed my driving test.” Me jumping up and down saying, “Oh, we got to go party! We got to go celebrate!” Sometimes it might be too much. Or somebody’s crying, somebody’s really sad and crying. Joining them may not be the most helpful thing to do at times that I’m also crying with them. So our point in the book is that even with acknowledgement, we’re kind of calibrating to make sure that the acknowledgement is appropriate, but just so we stick on this turn towards, turn away, and even turn against, to use some of Gottman’s language. So, for us turning away, one of the levels of acknowledgement is downplaying something. So if somebody says, “I’ve got a hundred emails.” Saying, “Well, I’ve got 250,” that’s actually not acknowledging- that’s downplaying it, but it’s possible to dismiss as well.
So we talk about different levels- but just so people are cautious- to say something about, “You shouldn’t even be worrying about that.” Now remember, this could be well intentioned. “Stop being such a worrier,” or “Why are you always overthinking things?”

We might be saying, “Please don’t overthink it,” or “It doesn’t deserve that much worry.” But that is a turning against, because you’re dismissing what the person is saying. You’re saying your worries are not appropriate, you’re exaggerating it, don’t exaggerate things. “Why are you always thinking of the worst-case scenario?” Those kinds of things. Even if we mean well are ways of dismissing. So we can start noticing those bids. When people say something to us, they’re looking for reassurance or they’re looking for a little positive comment, it’s really important that we notice them. So that’s where the skill of nurturing comes in. That was a bit, I might go to my partner and say, “Should we just go for a drive?”

That’s a bit, if my partner says, “Well, where do you want to go? Why would you want to go for a drive?” Now that’s turning away from a bit, maybe noting bids more and then spending time listening. So yeah, this idea of a simple thing we can all do is just dial up our acknowledging and start noting more opportunities to turn towards bids rather than away from. So I’ll give another personal example: I love going to the movies. I might say to my family, “Hey, do you guys want to go to the movies?” And the turning towards is, “Yeah, what’s on? Let’s have a look at what’s on.” An example of turning away from is, “Oh, we’ve got Netflix. Why would we go to the movies?” Because that’s kind of engaging with my suggestion is just an activity, not seeing it as a bid. The bid, “Let’s spend time together. Let’s go do something together.” And to say, “But we’ve got, Netflix,” is actually dismissing the bid or turning away from, it’s such valuable work. The Gottman Institute work. I do recommend it to people if they’d like to know a little bit more about that.

Shay Yeah, yeah, I would agree with you. Well, given that this whole conversation that we’re having about listening is in the context of a podcast that’s about having a conversation on healing- and of course, learning how the skills of how to listen more attentively and fully and to develop all of these different attributes in how we approach our listening style is so incredibly powerful and valuable.
And like I said, in therapeutic work, you can use this very specifically to support a healing journey. But I would be curious, you’ve given some personal examples from your own life in our conversation today- but just as you’ve processed in the writing of this book, and then of course, there’s an intellectual element to the writing of a book, and it has a lot of structure and it’s very well laid out- but at the same time, there’s that interpersonal processing, like you were already sharing in the course of the conversation.

There are certain things, like interjecting that you were like, “Wait, do I agree with that? Oh, actually, maybe I think I do.” So there’s that internal kind of processing. And I guess what I would be curious about in relationship to our specific conversation here today is: when you think about what you’ve learned about listening through the process of writing this book with Robert, who I also know who is a dear friend, what has it taught you about how listening can relate to healing and how we heal?

Christian Yeah. I think for me, the importance of being acknowledged- and so really, again, this comes back to this idea about Radical Listening is really just very respectful listening. It’s really all about respect. Many of us, what we really want is to be seen. We want to believe that other people value us, see us and hear us. And I do think that affording people that kind of full attention, especially if they’re talking about painful things that have happened in their lives, I think that it can be an important part of the healing process. So that idea of sometimes listening is the intervention. And when I’ve delivered this work to health professionals, not always, but often it’s nurses who come up to me afterwards and say, “What you said just really resonates with us.” Sometimes they’ll be dealing with people in hospices end of life care, and they said how they feel.
They’re giving dignity to the people and supporting them by simply listening to their stories, being interested in them. And one of the nurses talked to me about how they ask questions about the person beyond the current context they’re in- not as a patient, but tell me about you and tell me about the things that you worked on. Tell me. So that idea of listening in a way that allows people to experience greater wellbeing even during incredibly tough times. So that’s really powerful for me. The other thing that I did not expect to emerge and for me to learn is about compassion. And this is quite an important topic for me. And so I think one of the little phrases that I think we use in the book, or we’ve certainly started using it afterwards, is as part of the skill of accepting is the little phrase, everyone is always in the middle of something.

So that acknowledging of we’re all, that’s me and you, Shay, and everybody listening. Everybody’s always in the middle of something. So that’s helped me in my conversations, because respect is such an important thing for me. If I were talking to someone and I’m thinking they’re not being that respectful to me, that would’ve been a barrier. That would’ve been a huge barrier. But now I think to myself, “I don’t know what they’re going through right now. I don’t know what’s going on in their life right now. All sorts of things could be happening.” And the output of that is they’re interacting with me in a way that seems to me to be disrespectful, but it allows me to be more accepting. So I don’t know what they’re going through. So that’s part one of this big learning. The other is self-compassion. And that’s for all of us. Again, even as listeners, we’re going to get things wrong.

We’re going to say the wrong thing. Sometimes there’s times when we are irritated, there’s times when we distracted and it’s very important for us- to get that kind of groundedness we talked about- for us to be compassionate to ourselves. And I had a fascinating conversation with a coaching client of mine who said, “I don’t know how to be compassionate to myself. I just don’t know. You keep talking about it, but I don’t know how to do that.” And what they decided is they’re going to go and be compassionate to others and learn about what that is like. And then they were saying, “Once I know how to do that with others, I’m just going to apply that to myself.” Now, of course it’s not as easy to do as that, but I actually liked that idea of kindness, practice kindness with others. If you can do that, apply it to yourself.

And then to bring it really to the practical- I think we can practice compassion. And the best example I can think about is in traffic. If you’re driving- if you’re a driver, I think you know what I mean. Suddenly- you could be the kindest person on earth- suddenly you’re driving, somebody cuts you off in traffic and you’re going to lose it. In those moments when we’re kind of judging people or getting angry, it’s the best moment to practice this idea of- look, everybody’s in the middle of something. I don’t really know why that person did that. It’s definitely not personal because they don’t know me and I don’t know what’s going on for them. This could be the interview of their life that they’re going to, they could be they’re on their way to the emergency department of a hospital. So I do notice, I notice I’m getting judgmental, I’m getting angry, and I practice it in everyday life.
Somebody cuts in front of me while I’m waiting for my coffee. My immediate reaction is to get defensive, to get aggressive. But now I’m thinking, “Well, I don’t really know what’s going on for that person.” So I may still address it, but I would address it in a non-aggressive, “Hey, did you know that there’s a cue here: in a much more respectful way than “What do you think you’re doing?” That kind of thing. So I’m a big fan and I know you are as well, Shay, of putting these things into practice and learning. And as we’re learning, being compassionate with ourselves to say, sometimes we’re going to get it wrong. Sometimes I might be clumsy in how I say it. But another example for me is in the cases of bereavement, I was kind of, what’s the right word? Thinking of a word. It doesn’t come- I’m tongue tied.

I got tongue tied because I thought- “Should I say something to this person? I know they’ve been recently lost someone,” but I thought, “No, I don’t want to say the wrong thing.” So sometimes I wouldn’t say anything. And what I’ve learned Jay through this book is say something and get it wrong is better than not saying anything because I’m worried I might inadvertently because that worries more about me than them. I don’t want to say the wrong thing or come across as insensitive. So really I think it’s about coming back to what Radical Listening is all about. It is really caring about other people and showing them that you care. And I think it’s okay to get it wrong as long as they think, well, Christian actually cares about me. He said it in the wrong way. And Shay, this comes from that cross-cultural, intercultural thing you talked about.
I was born in Lebanon, my mother was Japanese, my father was Belgian. I went to an American school and an American university. So I’m often in different places where things like bereavement are handled in different ways- and that can cause me to doubt myself and say, “Oh, what was the right form of words? Is there something that I should say?” And before I wrote this book, I would’ve just tried to avoid it altogether. So I don’t get it wrong. Now I’m thinking it’s better to get it wrong and say, look, I do care. I might get the words wrong, and if I do, I could apologize rather than not connecting with the person.

Shay And I would say Christian, having- through the work that we do at Integrative Touch- worked with so many people that have experienced really significant losses: the death of a child, certainly the death of a partner or another loved one. The consistent teaching that they have shared with me, which I’ve tried to internalize myself to the best of my ability is that it’s worse to say nothing than it is to say the wrong thing. And when I heard that- and I’ve heard it multiple times now- that where it actually feels worse is when someone kind of disappears because they’re scared that they will say the wrong thing and that even though they don’t love it when someone says the wrong thing, at least there’s this sense that they’re trying and they care. And so I feel like it’s taught me that now- even if I’m not sure what to say- I still come forward and say something anyway, knowing I very well might get it wrong because I very well might get it wrong.

But it’s still worth that act of communicating those incredibly painful moments, just because so many people have said that back to me- that it’s much harder when you don’t hear from the people around you than when you do. And even if they say it wrong, they’re like, “Well, at least I know they tried, and they care.” So it is interesting. And also- certainly to your point, there are cultural differences. There are so many differences with all of this. And that’s why what I do think is beautiful about your book, it has an incredible framework. It has lots of practical examples, many of which you’ve walked us through today- but it also, to me, allows us to understand the depth of what listening truly is, and that is a lifelong process that none of us are going to get this perfect. We’re going to continuously make mistakes.

We’re going to have to step back, reevaluate, try again, do it better next time. Think more carefully and closely about how we could improve the way we’re communicating and rinse and repeat. That’s going to happen again and again because we’re human beings and we make mistakes and that’s part of being a human being. And so for me, one of the just reassuring parts of the book is there are skills that can be learned. You can play with those, you can practice those inevitably you’re going to make some mistakes, but that’s okay. Get back up, try again.

Christian Absolutely. I do hope that our conversation is helpful to listeners- that’s always been my intention and I know it’s yours too, Shay. And I do need to say- you are demonstrating Radical Listening every time you host one of these podcasts. And that’s what you do so skillfully, and I experience it. It feels safe. You seem very interested in what I have to say. You’ve kept the focus on me. So it’s kind of ironic. We’re talking about radicalism, when you are doing it so professionally here- but also in the Integrative Touch work as well. I can see. So thank you for giving me an opportunity to kind of share what I’m learning. And I want to reiterate- to you and the listeners- it’s a lifelong journey and we’re going to make mistakes, but it’s definitely improved my important relationships. Maybe I can say something else.

Robert and I are not saying we should all be Listening Radically all of the time. That’s a kind of misconception. If people are thinking, “Well, how can I listen like that all the time?”- We’re not saying that, There are many conversations that can stay at the very transactional level. That’s perfectly fine. We have lots of people in our lives. But if you were to think about who are the important, what are the important relationships in my life? And those could be personal or professional or anything else like that, those are the ones where if the relationship is important to you, we think it’s important to be intentional about the way that you listen to people. And I’m pretty confident that if we invest time and effort into this, it’s only going to lead to better connections and better relationships.

Shay I couldn’t agree more. Well, I want to thank you so much, Christian. If there are any last words that feel important for you to share in closing, I’m certainly open to having you share anything else that feels like, “Wait, I wanted to get that one thing in before we close”.

Christian Well, so kind of- you’d suggest that because my mind is always, “There’s one more thing,” but what I wanted to do is acknowledge the listeners. This is an important topic, it seems, like for both of us, Shay, and myself. And so I’m very grateful that people are investing their time. They could be doing so many other things. This is the world of distractions we live in- so I’m grateful to them for caring enough about this topic to actually sit and listen to our conversation. So I just wanted to say thank you to the listeners.

Shay That’s a beautiful way to close- to say thank you to our listeners. I love that. So my thanks to you, Christian, for having this conversation and for helping to teach- not only our listeners, but certainly me- more about what Radical Listening is and how we can apply it in our own lives to have more rich and fulfilling experiences. So, thank you.

Thank you so much.

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